Divorce Insights on Narcissistic Abuse and Custody Disputes with Padideh Jafari

Matt Phifer: Yeah, and so anyway, yeah, I I completely understand. You know, it’s part reason why we had you on is that, you know, your passion for victims of narcissistic abuse. And one of the, um, I want to go back to something you said in terms of that you work with the innocent because one of the things that I’m sure I always say this, I can hear the, you know, my audience like screaming through the through the phone and through the, you know, as they’re listening to this because narcissists are so crafty at making themselves sound like and look like the victim and like there’s a lot who who are the innocent one, especially with people who are new. What are some things that that that you’ve done or that you’ve seen over the years that kind of tips your hand that lets you know like like this isn’t the person that we we really really want to work with or maybe this person isn’t representing themselves the way that the way they really actually showed was they’re doing it was malevolent.

Attorney Jafari: Right. So you’re talking more about like the covert narcissist, the ones that come into the office on the initial consultation that are like, you know, poor me, I’m the victim. They never accept responsibility. I mean, look, like I said, I have a psychology background, so I know the questions to ask. If I feel like they’re doing things to be punitive, if they’re all about, you know, the principal and getting back and, you know, wanting this sort of shark attorney because they’re trying to hurt the other person. And also if they’re not accepting any responsibility for the demise of the marriage, right? That’s like one of the telltale signs. It’s like, it’s all the other person’s fault and how much can I get and walk away with? And it’s like, wait a minute, that’s like where alarm bells and the red flag comes into play where it’s like, well, wait a minute, let me ask some follow-up questions, you know. And also we do a lot of trials as well. So I sort of know like the type of questions to ask and pinpoint. And you know, I really, I really don’t want to help those people at all make life miserable for their spouse. So that’s not, you know, that’s not what anybody should be doing as an advocate, but we know that there’s attorneys that represent people like that. And usually it’s the narc attorneys, by the way, that represent the narcissists. And even if a narcissist has a better attorney and good attorney, they won’t like, they won’t keep them. They’ll, they’ll fire them. They change attorneys until they find their narc attorney that’s going to advocate like things that shouldn’t even be like, you know, filing motions that shouldn’t even be filed. And it’s like they do that litigation abuse. So yeah, believe me, I know these covert narcissists play the victim, but I want to see the documents. I want to hear the story. I want to know what your end goals are, what’s your strategy. You know, these types of questions kind of help me identify those people. And you know, we’re not, we’re not in the business of helping those people at all.

Matt Phifer: Yeah, one of the things that a lot of people have worked with in the past would become very concerned with is whether or not the judge sees it, whether or not the judge sees the things that you see, whether and there’s you, both of us have done this long enough that we’ve heard situations and stories where even if they do see the behavior, sometimes that person still either quote unquote wins because I know no one actually wins in the divorce, but they win whatever it is that they’re looking for. How do things like that happen? Is it because the person is not represented well? Is it because the case isn’t represented well, you know, or is it because that even though this person may be narcissistic, that they still have rights?

Attorney Jafari: Right. So like I say all the time, judges don’t have the time to sit there and, you know, evaluate if your spouse is a narcissist or not. So really it’s your attorney’s job to be narc informed and how to explain this in either documents, you know, physical evidence, right? Like bank statements. Somebody the other day said, you know, how about an itinerary? Like they’re falsely accusing me of something and I was in a different state. Like, can I give an itinerary? I was like, yes, that’s golden evidence. Like, so what we do is we never use the word narcissist, like projecting, mirroring, coercive control. I know one time I had a client recently say, you know, my divorce coach said, you know, this is coercive control. And can we put that in a like a legal memo to the judge? I was like, absolutely not. Like the judge is not here to diagnose your ex-spouse and you’re not qualified to diagnose your ex-spouse. So we use documentation as best as we can. And really, I tell my clients, the sooner you can get out of the court system, I call it the better. Because the narcissist is going to, by nature, they love chaos, Matthew, as you know, and they love to make sure that you go to the poorhouse, that you file bankruptcy at the end of all of this, that you go broke. And so your job with your attorney is to not diagnose the person. Yes, this person might be a narcissist or sociopath or other cluster B personality disorders, but your job is to have a strategy to get out of this family court system as soon as humanly possible. And one of the things that we do at the firm is we set a trial date. So a lot of times people are afraid to go to trial, but it’s like, no, that is the end date. That’s where you want to get to. And so with narcissists, we know that they don’t settle. They go to mediation just to waste your time, waste your money. And so we want that trial date ultimately. And I would be honest with you, in Southern California, only about, I think it’s 3 to 5% of cases actually go to trial in family law. So that trial date, you’re going to get some settlement before then. And so that kind of forces them to and their attorney to come to the settlement table in a reasonable, as reasonable as humanly possible. And so, you know, we tell our clients, if there’s five issues and we can settle three issues, then great. We’ll go to trial on two of those issues.

Matt Phifer: One of the things, oh sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Attorney Jafari: So just knowing that you have a narc-informed attorney and having a strategy is very, very helpful and beneficial.

Matt Phifer: Yeah, one of the parts of the strategy that I would talk to people about often whenever I was coaching people on this was not to negotiate with the narcissist outside of the realm of their attorneys and court and things like that because they were doing a handful of things. They were just gathering information. They were going to use it against you. I don’t know if I’ve told this story on the podcast. I remember there was a person who I was working with years ago, and I told them this. And of course, the narcissist in that situation was able to, you know, get at them enough. And the person just wanted the divorce done and told the person, told their narcissistic ex, you can have anything you want. The only thing I need out of this relationship is my dog. You can have the house, you can have this. They didn’t share children, anything like that. You can have the assets. I just need my dog. And when they went to court the next day or that week, the narcissist, of course, with tears, you heard her, she can have anything she wants. The only thing I need is my poor little dog. And I always share that story with people because that’s exactly what they’ll do. The one thing that if you tip your hand and if they know that that’s the one thing that you want, then that’s the one thing you’re going to be going to trial over. And if you’re not careful, you’re going to be going to trial over a dog, over a couch, over, you know, over something that from the outside looking in might seem very, very simple. But have you run into those type of issues and is there a way of avoiding those type of issues? Because from my experience, this has been quite common.

Attorney Jafari: Yes, you’re absolutely right. And usually it’s the child, right? So in that case, the dog was their child, so I can understand that. But usually it’s the child and it’s like they use the child and we’ve seen it in both genders, you know, when we represent fathers and we represent mothers, usually they’re using the child and, you know, it’s like the parent that really hasn’t taken care of the child while they were together and now all of a sudden wants, you know, sole custody or 50/50 custody and the other parent’s going, what are you talking about? You never took care of the child when we were together. And so usually they use the child as a pawn and that obviously becomes very difficult for our clients. But we have a lot of, you know, custody issues and disputes about the child. And so, you know, just even this morning, you know, we had a situation where the narc father took the two and a half year-old to go see a doctor without the mother. And the mother’s the primary, we represent the mother. And so our client’s going, how can he do that? How can he take the two and a half-year-old to the pediatrician without even letting me know or informing me? And so that’s, you know, again, we tell our clients he’s using the child. Not that it makes it better, but just so you know that we hear you, we see you, we understand what he’s doing. And, you know, we can put into a parenting plan where he has to let you know before he does that to give you the opportunity to be there as well. Because, you know, the narc father in this case is taking the two and a half-year-old and he wants the child to go to preschool. So he’s doing everything possible to have that pediatrician say, oh yeah, yeah, she’s ready for preschool. It’s like, so whatever it is, like you said, sometimes in our cases it’s a piano and we’re going, the narcissist doesn’t even play the piano, you know? And so we tell our clients, like, you can either argue about the piano and, you know, you’re going to run up attorney’s fees or you can just go buy a new piano. Some things obviously have sentimental value. So, you know, they’re like, no, we need this particular piano. But really the best way, Matthew, and I’m telling you this as a divorce attorney, is not to tip your hand, like you said. Let your attorney do all the talking for you and really try to close the loop as much as possible and get out of this court system. Because clients think, okay, the judge is, you know, the judge is going to be reasonable and just. And I tell my clients, look, judges are subjective in family law. There’s no jury. So I tell my clients, if the judge is having a bad day, right, you could get a bad decision and I could be doing everything in my power to represent you effectively and persuade, you know, trying to persuade the judge, but I don’t ultimately know what the judge is thinking. Right. So, um, you know, judges have biases too. They’re not supposed to, but they’re human. So really you need to, you need to close a loop, make sure that you’re focusing on the things you really care about and try to get out of the court system.

Matt Phifer: Yeah, you mentioned a phrase that I used a lot when I was coaching people. Close that loop. Because one of the things that, uh, another strategy that I would oftentimes see from the narcissistic side was we can divorce, but let’s keep the house in each other’s name. Right. Or let’s keep the boat in each other’s name. You can have the car, but I just want to keep my name on it and having all of these loops continuously open. Um, you know, and, and that under the guise of we can, we can remain cordial and it always ends up a, a huge mess where thousands and you’re, but they’re not making the payments. They’ve got, say your name, but you know, they’re not making payments or not returning things or not sharing things like, you know, and it just, just becomes problematic. And you end up in a situation where you have to go back for either a modification and a lot of times those modifications are just as bad or even worse than the divorce itself. Um, is that something that you, you see a lot where, uh, and sometimes it’s with things that people find most sentimental or, uh, they think that this is a way to try to appease the person and it doesn’t work.

Attorney Jafari: Right. Um, well we, we always say, um, you know, if, if the person like, let’s say that, okay, you’re agreeing to keep the house, let the other person keep the house. That’s usually the, the narc spouse. And, um, what if he or she gets a girlfriend and now you have a third party living in your house and then the client goes, oh my gosh, well, I wouldn’t want that. And it’s like, well, what do you think is gonna happen? Right. So I always advise get them off the title. If they’re not going to agree to it, then we need to force the sale of the house and judges in Southern California, they understand this. Right. And so sometimes people will say, well, you know, can I have 90 days or can I have, it’s like, yeah, you can have time to go figure out how you can refinance the home. But at the end of the day, it needs to be either refinanced or sold because these things, like you said, actually get worse over time. And we’ve seen it where, you know, clients from other attorneys have come back and they’re like, you know, it’s been two years at, you know, year one, he was supposed to refinance and he didn’t. And now we’re sitting here year two and now we have to do, you know, we have to open up the case again. And so that’s like spending, you know, good money after bad. And we advise our clients, you need to get them off the title. And if they can’t afford it, then there’s your answer. Right. So, um, have the house sold, split the proceeds, pay the debt and move on with your life.

Matt Phifer: Yeah. Padideh, this has been absolutely, absolutely amazing. You are a wealth of knowledge. Um, and I’m sure that the audience has gotten a lot of information. I know this is the, uh, this is the first, this our first recording back after, after a bit of a break. So this has been, uh, this is, this is a great refresher for, uh, for us to coming back. Uh, can you tell people where they can find you at if they would like to work with you or maybe they just want to follow you to, you know, for a little bit more, more guidance and tips and just for overall support and, um, to involve you in your community?

Attorney Jafari: Yes. Um, you know, we are passionate about our community and Matthew, like you said before. So, you know, if people have questions also, um, they can, um, you know, email me. They can, our website is Jafarilegal.com. All of our socials are Jafarilegal. And, um, I know we were talking about this earlier, like I’m starting a podcast which is launching in the fall called NARC and it stands for Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. I’m doing this with a friend of mine and, um, we’re really going to talk and delve more into the issues of narcissism. How do you recover when you’re in a marriage and a divorce? How do you recover? What does that look like? So we will have, um, people like yourself on the podcast, but also, um, you know, therapists and, you know, coaches and people that, you know, can really help you through, uh, this really, this trauma. Um, like you said before. So, um, you know, check us out there on, you know, wherever you listen to, to podcasts and then really just try to get into in touch with us. Um, sometimes people say, you know, can you find me an attorney that’s not in California because my case is like, let’s say in a different state. So I also do that, you know, I’ll do like a 15 minute consultation and I’ll try to, you know, um, locate attorneys for, for clients. I mean, we really are here to help, um, people and that’s, that’s really our mission, you know?

Matt Phifer: Well, and if you are listening to this, if you are, whether you’re watching this on YouTube or listening to this on Spotify, go down into the comment section and let us know some things you learned today that maybe you didn’t know before. Also go over to, um, to attorney Jafari’s social media platform. Make sure you guys show her some love. Uh, send her a DM, make sure you guys comment on any of her content. Give her the likes, follow shares and the love that you need so we get all the information out there as well. Uh, share this with the people that you might know that are struggling as well. And with all that being said, thank you so much. This is the Matt Phifer experience and we will see you on the next episode. You guys have a good one.