Guest Appearance: Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast

r. Liz Hail: Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I’m psychologist Dr. Liz Hail along with the esteemed Professor Dr. Dave Shram, and together we have dedicated our careers to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Dave will be joining us next time, but we wanted to welcome you again to Stronger Marriage Connection.

You know, we’ve produced more than 100 shows here on our podcast with all kinds of relationship experts, but seldom have we had guests that specialize in divorce. I’m looking forward to our discussion today, tackling topics that our divorce attorney frequently sees with divorcing couples. Welcome to the show, Attorney Padideh Jafari.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Liz Hail: I do too. I noticed your information online, and I thought, Oh, I really want to visit with you. So gracious of you. You are a respected litigator with 22 years of experience navigating complex divorce matters out of California, which is so interesting. The only thing I remember about California’s divorce—because I worked with a couple from there even though I’m in Utah, they came up for counseling—is that they had that long waiting period of six months. Occasionally, you say there are a few couples every year that reconcile during that period of time.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes, absolutely.

Post-Holiday Financial Stress

Dr. Liz Hail: Well, with that comes patterns of couples and struggles that you’ve seen, and we’d love to hear your tips on several topics today. So, let’s just get going. We wrapped up the holidays a few weeks ago, and in your practice, you’ve seen countless couples struggle with post-holiday financial stress. It gets the best of us. In fact, in January, you often see an uptick in divorces.

What’s the psychology behind holiday overspending, and what patterns do you notice in how couples handle the aftermath?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yeah, I always say, you know, they say January is divorce month, and I always say couples want to get their gifts, they want to give their children one last, you know, beautiful Christmas together—like unity.

Sometimes, when I said earlier to you—we were talking offline—that couples reconcile, they usually reconcile around November. So by November, they get through Thanksgiving, then they get through Christmas and the new year, and then in January, I get a slew of emails like, I’m ready, I’m ready, or I get new clients.

I do think that finances obviously are a huge indicator of whether a couple is going to stay together or not. I mean, it’s just the facts, right? If one spouse is really a spendthrift and doesn’t want to spend anything, and then the other is overspending or maybe is a shopaholic, you’re going to have a lot of conflict over money, which can and often does lead to divorce.

Dr. Liz Hail: I was just so curious—I mean, do couples who are on the verge of divorce also kind of splurge on each other that last Christmas? Do we see that?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: I don’t see that. I do see sometimes where if one of the spouses doesn’t want the divorce, they’ll maybe be overspending. I’ll get the client, and they’ll say, I got so many gifts—more than ever before—because I think my spouse knows I’m sort of on my way out, and this was the last-ditch effort.

One other thing that’s really interesting, Liz, is that lately, couples have been taking vacations together to see if they can mend things before they file.

Couples’ Last Vacations

Attorney Padideh Jafari: I’ll have clients—because we do a lot of pre-divorce strategy—where they’ll find me online and say, I’m thinking about divorce, but the nail isn’t really in the coffin yet. They’ll say, We have a trip planned this summer or around the holidays. I want to have a consultation with you. Sometimes they pay the retainer, sometimes they don’t. They go on the trip and kind of just see: Is this worth fighting for one last time?

And they always ask, What do you think about that? And I say, It’s irrelevant what I think about that. All that matters is what you want to do.

And I will tell you, nine and a half times out of ten—I don’t even know if that’s a statistic—they come back and say, I’m ready to file even more so now than before the trip.

Dr. Liz Hail: I suppose whatever gets a couple to that true essence, right? I think people do know what’s best for them. I mean, who am I to say what’s best for someone else? So, if that’s what it takes to be clear, then maybe so be it—that last hurrah or holiday.

In-Law Interference

Dr. Liz Hail: Another barrier you’ve seen in your law practice is in-law interference, and gosh, that is so tricky. I see it too. Tell us about the importance of creating and maintaining healthy boundaries with in-laws. What’s your top advice, let’s say, for even newlyweds struggling to establish healthy boundaries without damaging the family relationships?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yeah, I mean, family dynamics are so vitally important, as you know because you’re a practitioner, right? Especially younger couples—I think older couples, when they’re on their second or third marriage, they’ve learned.

You need to make sure that you put each other first, and even the children come second. A lot of times, people don’t agree with that. They’re like, Well, wait a minute, if I’m getting married and I have a child… I’m like, No, it doesn’t work that way. Your spouse comes first.

And so, I always say, too, make sure that if you do have a child, they have a good relationship with your soon-to-be spouse, because that’s obviously very important. But as far as in-laws, boundaries are so critical.

Dr. Liz Hail: Right, kind of that “leave and cleave,” right?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes! And if in-laws don’t have clear boundaries, they can have a very powerful impact. Sometimes, it’s not that they don’t want the marriage to work, they just don’t know when to stop, when to come, and when to call.

If you establish the boundaries early, there won’t be any resentment.

Sharing Marital Issues with Family

Dr. Liz Hail: I often think about how sometimes even couples who’ve been married for a while continue to speak to their own parents about their marriage. That seems really damaging to a marriage as well.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yeah, because what happens is the couple will reconcile—they’ll forgive each other because they have to, right? Marriage, especially a long-term marriage, requires a lot of forgiveness. But then, the parents never forget.

They’re holding a grudge, and so I think it’s best—and I’m not just saying this because of your profession—but I’m always of the opinion: Speak to a psychologist, speak to a psychotherapist. If you really have an issue, and you want to speak to your pastor or your rabbi, speak to someone who’s not a close family member.

Even friends—because you don’t always know their intentions. There could be jealousy there, or other motives. If it’s a big enough issue, it’s time to see a professional who can help you and give you clear guidance on how to resolve the issue.

I think parents, family members, and friends will just listen, but sometimes their advice is not good advice. And I’ve seen that hurt marriages.

Dr. Liz Hail: Right, sometimes they’ll just say, Be done with it already! Just get a divorce!

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Exactly. And we know that divorce—it’s not that simple. I know this because I’ve been doing family law and divorce for 22 years. Even if you don’t have a child with someone, it’s still the breaking of a family.

People say, Oh, well, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll just get divorced. And I’m like, Ah, it’s not that easy.

Yes, if you don’t have children, it’s easier, but what about that breaking of the covenant, or the vows that you made to someone?

Conflict Avoidance Problems

Dr. Liz Hail: It’s so refreshing to have you on. It’s refreshing to hear a divorce attorney say, Oh gosh, I’m not even advocating for divorce.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes!

Dr. Liz Hail: You really want couples—if there’s any way for them to work it out—to do so, because divorce is a big deal. It’s crushing.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes. I have a great marriage myself, so I’d be a hypocrite if I said I believe in divorce. I don’t.

It’s just important to have open communication, to establish boundaries with yourself, your spouse, and your in-laws. Because once resentment sets in, that’s where the break happens. And sometimes, you might not even know you’re being resentful.

We have a rule in our marriage: No tit-for-tat. If you do something for me, I don’t want to be reminded of it. I don’t want you keeping a tally of all the things you’ve done for me.

I see that with my clients—there’s so much, Well, I did this, and he didn’t do that. And I tell them, That’s not what marriage is about.

Dr. Liz Hail: Yes! Keeping score.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Exactly.

Dr. Liz Hail: The phrase keeping the peace sounds so positive, right? But you argue that it can actually damage marriages. Can you walk us through why conflict avoidance often leads to bigger problems? What’s the difference between healthy compromise and, let’s say, harmful peacekeeping?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Right. I think there’s a new term I’ve been hearing called toxic positivity. Have you heard that term, Liz?

Dr. Liz Hail: Oh, not yet—wow!

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yeah, so it reminds me of that. It’s like, We’re just going to be positive. Everything’s great. Even though you hurt my feelings, I’m not going to disclose it because I don’t want to get you mad.

Or It’s not that big of a deal to me. But deep down, it is a big deal.

It could be something small. Say she loves flowers, but she never tells her husband. And now she’s resentful, thinking, My ex used to buy me flowers all the time—why doesn’t my husband? But the husband has no idea!

And she’s thinking, I don’t want to tell him—he should just know!

That’s toxic positivity. And then she goes out and tells everyone, My husband is perfect, everything’s perfect. But she knows it’s not.

Dr. Liz Hail: Yes!

Attorney Padideh Jafari: I think there should be classes for people who want to get married. And the first class should be: How to communicate your needs.

The problem is, most people don’t even know what their needs are, so it’s hard to communicate them. And if you don’t disclose what’s bothering you, it’s going to fester.

That’s why people say, Oh, my divorce was a surprise! But if you really look back, was it? Often, the signs were there.

The Seven-Year Itch

Dr. Liz Hail: In your practice, you’ve seen milestones often related to struggles. You have a take on the 10-year milestone and the seven-year milestone. What makes these time frames so challenging for couples?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Oh, there definitely is a seven-year itch. There’s no doubt about it.

I’ve seen it over 22 years—right around six and a half, seven, seven and a half years. It’s like…all the gloves are off.

Couples need to decide if their marriage is a contract or a covenant.

If it’s a contract, it’s like a business relationship: I’ll do this, you do that. And once one person doesn’t hold up their end, the contract is broken.

But if it’s a covenant, there’s a different level of commitment. People hold on a little bit longer.

The reason that seven-year itch happens? It’s different for different couples. But I believe it comes down to lack of communication, financial disagreements, and growing apart instead of together.

I love Dr. Chapman’s book on The Five Love Languages. I’m a huge fan of the concept. But the issue with love languages is you have to know your love language in order to tell your spouse. And your spouse has to actually receive that information.

I remember years ago in my psychology class at Loyola, my professor said:

Once resentment builds in a marriage, you forget about it—it’s really, really hard to come out of that.

And I never forgot that.

Dr. Liz Hail: Wow! That’s powerful.

Illness and Marital Stress

Dr. Liz Hail: Let’s talk about the hidden impact of illness on marriages. You’ve noted that chronic health conditions can create really unique relationship challenges, even beyond the medical stress. What are the early warning signs that a couple’s relationship is struggling under the weight of a health issue? And are there resources they should seek?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yeah, I mean, there are always resources. But the first thing is identifying the root of the problem. Usually, it’s not the illness itself.

The couple may already have communication issues. Maybe they’re not understanding each other—one person is saying something, and the other isn’t receiving it the way it was intended.

And then you add in a very difficult issue, like a chronic illness or financial problems—maybe someone loses their job. These are outside forces, and sometimes there’s nothing they can do about them.

That’s where the break happens.

I don’t believe that if a spouse gets sick, the other spouse just packs their bags and leaves. What I do believe is that the love and communication were already breaking down before the illness. The illness is just another layer—the final straw.

Dr. Liz Hail: Oh, wow. That’s another reason to keep cleaning house in a marriage—to not let issues go unspoken and allow resentments to build. Because once a crisis or health struggle comes along, it can be the tipping point.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes, exactly. And that’s why I always advocate for psychotherapy. Some of my colleagues—other divorce attorneys—they’ll say to me, You send everyone to therapy! Why do you do that?

And I tell them: Because it’s so vitally important that a person understands themselves and how they contributed to the breakdown of their marriage.

They’ll say, I don’t want to go for the other person! And I say, You’re missing the point. The point is to figure out what YOU did, so you don’t repeat it in the future.

And guess what? They come back and thank me.

They’ll say, If I got nothing else from my divorce, at least I figured out things about myself that I didn’t know before.

Because here’s the reality—second marriages have a higher divorce rate. And third marriages? The divorce rate is around 75%.

So who are the people getting divorced more often? The ones who don’t know themselves.

Dr. Liz Hail: Oh, that is so profound. Wherever I go, there I am, right?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Exactly!

Understanding Narcissistic Traits

Dr. Liz Hail: Now, you have a podcast, The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel, and I find that fascinating.

I often hear women say, I’m pretty sure my husband is a narcissist. And men will say, I’m pretty sure my wife is borderline.

Do you see people misusing these terms? Are people labeled as narcissists when they really aren’t?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes! It’s definitely overused.

That said, I always tell clients, Maybe they have narcissistic traits. We don’t diagnose anyone—we’re not doctors.

As attorneys, we never use the word narcissism in court. We don’t say gaslighting or projecting because the judge would look at us like we were out of our minds.

If needed, we bring in experts to conduct psychological evaluations. But in 22 years, I can count on one hand the number of times that’s happened.

Most of the time, people see traits online or on social media—Instagram, TikTok—and they identify with them. But to be a true narcissist, you have to meet a strict set of clinical criteria.

Dr. Liz Hail: Right. And if you’re divorcing someone, it really doesn’t matter whether they’re a narcissist or not.

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Exactly. I tell clients: Why does it matter? You’re divorcing them anyway!

Now, if there are children involved, then yes, we document certain behaviors. But if there are no kids and no co-parenting, it really doesn’t matter what they are. Just focus on getting through the process.

Mediation for Couples

Dr. Liz Hail: In your mediation work—because you also do mediation, right?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes!

Dr. Liz Hail: That’s amazing. What role does mediation play in divorces, and have you ever seen couples reconcile through mediation?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes! And actually, mediation is one of my favorite parts of my practice.

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of collaborative law?

Dr. Liz Hail: Yes, I love it!

Attorney Padideh Jafari: So, 22 years ago, when I started, there was this big debate: Are you going to be a litigator or a collaborative attorney? And I thought, Why can’t I do both?

I don’t get many collaborative cases, because we deal with high-conflict divorces. But mediation? I love it.

Mediation can work for almost anyone—except in cases of narcissism or physical abuse, because those personalities don’t mediate well.

And yes, I have seen couples get back together during mediation.

Dr. Liz Hail: Oh, really?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Yes! Last year, I had a couple who had a six-month-old baby. I pulled the wife aside and said, Are you sure? Because I didn’t see the husband as a bad guy—he was taking parenting classes voluntarily!

And she said, Let me think about it. She asked to put the divorce on hold for 30 days.

Guess what? She got back with him.

Dr. Liz Hail: Wow!

Attorney Padideh Jafari: That’s why I love mediation. When there’s no physical abuse and just communication issues, I always say: Think about it. Try therapy.

Key to a Stronger Marriage Connection

Dr. Liz Hail: This is the time in our interview where we ask all our guests one special question:

In all your personal and professional experience, what do you believe is the key to a stronger marriage connection?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Communication.

Dr. Liz Hail: Oh, yes! But communication can be fraught with problems. What kind of communication would you say is crucial?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Expressing your needs. Asking for help.

I think sometimes, especially as women, we are doers. But we need to learn to pause and ask for help.

Marriage should function like a team. Think about sports—how players communicate to reach a common goal. That’s how a marriage should be.

Your spouse is not against you. They are for you.

But a lot of people start treating their spouse like the enemy instead of a teammate.

Final Takeaway

Dr. Liz Hail: From everything we’ve talked about today, what’s the one thing you want people to remember most?

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Before filing for divorce, do everything humanly possible to see if your marriage can be saved.

Obviously, if there’s domestic violence, that’s different. But if it’s communication issues, resentment, or unmet expectations, those things can be worked on.

Because once you file, it sets things in motion. And some couples regret it.

Dr. Liz Hail: That is so powerful. Thank you for joining us, Attorney Jafari!

Attorney Padideh Jafari: Thank you for having me!

Dr. Liz Hail: And to our listeners—remember, it’s the small things that create a stronger marriage connection.